Chapter 12 Beyond Modernity

In chapter twelve Shalit discusses if women should be independent or dependent of someone. She pictures women’s image as they all are dependent on someone or something. She argues that women should be competitive to survive or as a self defense, and that they should not pay too much attention to what “our parents’ generation tell us” about “motherhood revolution.” In my opinion women today is more independent as a life’s choice. As a choice a woman can decide to raise her family and take care of her husband. What is problem in pursuing this life? When a woman decides to marry someone she knows what a life with kids and husband is going to be, or at least she has an idea of what is waiting for her. As a married person, I must say that the most difficult experience is to give up some of my independence or my own life priorities as I think of my wife’s and daughter’s well being. At the end I am happy because I am not alone in the world, I have a friend, partner and wife, and I also have my dream that come true: my daughter. So, I have to conclude that we are never going to have everything that we desire in life, but we should try to have what is considered a priority in order to be happy.
Another discussion is about the influence of religion on women modesty. I agree with Shalit’s idea that the society or the culture in which we are immersed plays a fundamental rule in our own beliefs and behavior as she says: “…most people have ended up letting the culture they live in dictate their choices. I suppose this isn’t an intrinsically bad thing-it just seems to be the way we are made.” In fact, our modesty is molded by our own beliefs, and our own beliefs are molded by the societal or religious group which we belong.
Regarding her discussion about cultural values, I think that cultural values can provide guidance on how we should dress up. I agree with the idea that we can be more sexy or conservative depending the way we dress. However, I believe that some religious culture uses the way to dress and virginity as a repression of sexual desire among man and woman. I don’t think that preserving virginity can contribute to a healthy relationship.
Jose Luis Iglesias

Chapter 11 Guided Blog

"I feel as though premarital sex makes woman lose a since of their virtues but not their ability to be modest. Does premarital sex make females have less or more modesty?"

I don't think that premarital sex necessarily makes a woman lose a sense of their virtues. I think that woman and men alike can take part in premarital sex and know where they want to go in life and still have goals and values. It affects different people in different ways and the only way to really truly understand its affect is by talking to the individual who took part in the act. I think when it comes to modesty the same is to be said. A woman or man controls if it affects their modesty. Some girls may be very sexually active before marriage and let that affect how they dress and how they act around towards men sexually, while others may not let it substantially change their opinions on how modest or immodest they are.

-Brandon Kinlein

Chapter 10: Modesty and the Erotic

In this chapter Shalit talks about reputation and how we do anything to appear normal. I agree with her claim that having sexual experience makes you normal. Today people try to make others believe they are sexually experienced for fear of being known as inexperienced. Why does it matter what other people think? Whose business is it anyway? This reminds me of high school where reputation is everything. The experienced girls were considered 'hot' while the girls who kept quiet about sex or didn't have it at all were 'goody-goodies'. My question is; why is promiscuity attractive to some men? I don't think that it is wrong but I believe being modest is more attractive and exciting. In my experience, playing hard to get is more fun. It keeps people interested and is a challenge. I'm not saying women should play games, but doesn't easy get boring? Although society causes girls to flaunt their sexual experience, I think classy is the new slutty.

-Lindsey Winesburg

Chapter 9: Against the Curing of Womanhood

In this chapter, Shalit is addressing how society is curing woman of rejection sensitivity and feelings. Being "intense" has become something bad and unacceptable. In the last paragraph, Shalit states that "Maybe wanting to forge bonds with others is normal, and it's cutting ourselves off from enduring attachments that is perverse...Incidentally, if you're not sensitive to rejection, doesn't that also mean you're indifferent to love?"

I think I agree with her. If one loves, it's supposed to be forever, and avoiding this feeling is abnormal. But what if this feeling of love is so deep that when the other breaks away, you can't do anything but take Prozac? Suppressing this love maybe wrong, but what if there is no way out of this rut? What can you do?

-Joy Jen

Chapter 8 - Male Character

This chapter starts out by asking: What can it mean to be afraid to be a gentleman? For many people chivalry is dead. Being a gentleman really boils down to basic manners. In a social setting I will certainly stand up when I'm introduced to someone. I still open as many doors as I can for women. I do these things because I was taught that it's good manners to do so. I was taught some of these things and others I just observed from other people. An example given by Shalit shows that Jerry Seinfeld doesn't carry Elaine's grocery bags inside for her, he also takes the better seat on the airplane. This is a bad example for her to use. Modern culture is definately going to mock tradition. If something along the lines of the Titanic happened today I don't think the outcome would be much different. Most people will remain composed until the moment they realize that there's no point in being civilized.

Next Shalit talks about male modesty. She defines it as moderating one's sexual activity and generally reserving it for one's beloved. Male modesty is strongly tied to the notion of honor and obligation. Men shouldn't brag about your women. I think she's actually right about this. You really can't be modest when you are running around talking about your latest conquests all the time. A man of honor is someone who respects female modesty (pg 149). Shalit says that twenty years ago you would hold and protect your lovers but today, you would only have a lover to impress the outside world. There certainly are people that love to brag and show off when it comes to sex.

For me courtesy is a big thing. I went to a wedding a few weeks ago. After the reception the newlyweds were walking out to cheers and sparklers. They approach the vehicle they are using to leave the reception and the groom didn't open the door for the bride. I cringed. She actually yelled at him and forced him to walk back around to her side and get the door for her. I often wonder what happened to these basic manners?

-John Johnson

Chapter Seven – Can modesty be natural?

On chapter seven Shalit discussed if modesty can be natural. First she discussed about women vulgarity and modesty. Again she returned to talk about pornography as an example of vulgarity, and asks if women are much vulgar than men. She used the argument of women being vulgar in order to attempt to be equal as men. It seems to me that she likes to emphasize that there is a competition between women and men in all situations in life. She discussed about etiquette between men and women, and she gave some examples of men’s behavior after long term relationships. I don’t believe that “bad manners” can have a bad influence in couple’s relationship, if both accept them. In other words, before you get into a relationship you must know about your partner, and you have the right to break up the relationship. Her second proof is based on the way how women dress themselves. Well, I think this is very personal. In my opinion we should never stereotype women. They are indeed different than men. Some women came from different cultures with different values. The right question should be: Are women really embarrassed on the streets? Well, I’ll leave the answer for you guys. The third proof “don’t-say-it-that-way”, she wants to prove that women are always misunderstood by men. I think that Shalit generalizes men. There are different kinds of men, and if men don’t respect women’s feelings, for sure he is not the “right” person for her. What is wrong in that? It is a question of choosing the “right” person, or a person who can at least understands her. So, let’s go to her fourth proof. It’s crazy. Of course young girls are embarrassed about everything. After all, they don’t have enough life experience to decide what it is wrong or right. So the only thing that woman can do, and I’d like to include men, is to take risk. Life is all about taking risks. Finally she acknowledges that there are differences, and she used religion as an example of different concepts of modesty as a virtue. I don’t agree with Shalit when she says that “woman who is praised may be conveying to the world by her bashfulness”. Nowadays women are as competitive as men. This is the proof that she is wrong. Perhaps she sees herself as a woman in the 50s. I don’t believe in false modesty, as Shalit argues. I believe that there are different “levels of modesty”. For example what it is modesty for me might not be it for other person. A rich person could think that modesty is to have a one million dollar house, only one luxurious yacht, and only one expensive car because he or she compares his or her modesty with that of a billionaire person who has four million dollar houses, two luxurious yachts, and ten expensive cars. So, there is a different modesty for everyone. Next, there is another Shalit’s attempt to protect sexual modesty. She says:”the beauty of sexual modesty is that it protects your secrets for the man who truly loves you.” I feel that she reduces a man-woman relationship to a sexual, carnal contract. I’d like to ask to Shalit and you guys: Where is the companionship between man and woman in her ideas? And what about the respect? So, Ms. Shalit, I would like to inform you that life is not only about sex. I can understand that when you wrote this book you were a young girl discovering yourself. A proof that life is not all about sex is your grandparents’ relationship. What a beautiful mature relationship and companionship. But perhaps in the past they were all about sex either.
Jose Luis Iglesias

Chapter 6 The Great Deception

"It was the cultural respect for women's natural modesty that protected her. Then some intellectuals came along and said that these codes respectful of modesty discriminated. Of course they did. But they also gave women freedom: freedom to walk in the street without having to fear being harassed, stalked, or raped, freedom for a girl to studying in school without being sodomized, freedom to be alone with a man and still deserve respectful treatment."

This may be one of the first statements in the book that has really made me think...

Has the movement in our culture away from modesty caused a much more hostile environment for females? Is it just that our society has come to grips with the fact that society has changed and we just prefer deal with it than talk about it? Is there any way to change female modesty from what it has become?

Maybe it's just the culture in which we live and the fact that I come from a younger generation, but I think it's a lot harder for me to comprehend and see any shift or really understand the concept of modesty because it has been the way it is for a while. I don't really know of the modesty women of the '50's and '60's because I wasn't around. I dont know how men acted back then either. I only know what I've grown up knowing and experiencing. I think it is and has been,for some time, a fairly modesty-free society. Maybe that is just me.

-Brandon Kinlein

Chapter 5: Forgiving Modesty

'The Armor of Hope' section of Chapter Five really caught my attention. In particular, the opinion of therapist Judy Seifer who warns women, "to avoid sounding unbalanced, keep your expectations in check, realize that this wonderful man had a very full life before he met you and that this life will continue. Yes, you're a part of it, but you're not the only part of it...show him you're an independent person..."

In many ways I agree with this statement. I've had too many friends put all of their time and effort into a guy only to find their world shatter when the relationship ends. Why do many women become so dependent on their partner that they can't imagine life without him? Do men feel this way? Society makes it seem like women are needy,dependent and that guys just don't want the commitment. Maybe I don't understand this dependency to men because I have not been in a serious relationship in a while. I think two people can have a relationship and still have their own separate lives, friends, or something they can call their own. Especially at my age, I think young women have too much to look forward to and not enough time to latch ourselves to some silly boy!

P.S.- Don't get me wrong, I'm all about relationships, just not to the point it becomes an obsession.

-Lindsey Winesburg

Chapter 4: New Perversions

“But we don’t believe in keeping girls safe anymore. We believe that their independence is more important” (Shalit,78).

While I was reading this chapter, the quote above really stood out to me, but I’m not sure if I support or oppose it. I was talking to my friend the other day about women, equality, and etiquettes. We argued about how society has changed women and men. I, being the woman, argued with a hit of Shalit saying that much etiquette has been abandoned because of our changing society; etiquettes such as giving up a sit for lady, not swearing in the presence of a lady, holding a door for lady (men still do these things, but many etiquettes have gone untaught or they have become outdated). He argued that “many of the etiquettes on how men treat women have become outdated because society today teaches women to be strong and independent. There are single moms working jobs and taking care of their kids. There is a woman who has the potential to become the next president. More and more women are getting degrees and working better jobs than men. Women don't 'need' to be taken care of anymore; they can take care of themselves now. Society is very different today than it was when men would give up their seats and open doors for ladies. Society is constantly changing and it always will.” What he said related a lot to the quote above. In this chapter Shalit gives an account of a girl named Kristin that was brutally murdered because of her strong independent nature... that made me question even more, “Are we (women) giving up our safety for independence?”

-Joy Jen

Chapter 3 - The Fallout

Shalit starts this chapter out strong with this: "A society that has declared war on embarrassment is one that is hostile to women." Wow. What is she saying here? Is she trying to say that only women are embarrassed and because of that men prey on them? This really threw me off.

Next she talks about rape. She mentions a survey among teenagers and throws out some really high percentages. I really find it hard to believe that so many teenagers thought it was ok to have non-concensual sex with a woman, no matter the scenario. Was I raised differently? I'm sure that as soon as I was able to speak I would have answered no to a question like that. She mentions date-rape as well. I'd have to agree that this is a problem. When I was younger and in college I knew guy's that thought this was ok to do, even normal.

Ok I have to comment on the pornography section. There's nothing wrong with a little porno! I can see how women get upset about this, but it really is just a fantasy. If a guy is taking it to far, or it becomes an addiction then yes, there's a problem. I always laugh when I hear guys say something like "Oh she found some porn and says I have to get rid of it or else." I also get a kick out of women that are upset about their s/o's going to a strip club. I bet 90% of guys NEVER act on any desire they feel in a strip club, or when watching porn. I am not shocked by seeing a stripper. I'm not embarrassed by it either. I'm really quite comfortable with it and don't see it as a cultural problem at all.

It's hard for me to comment on the "Girls who can't say no" section. I'm not a girl, and I've never said no. ZING! j/k! I really think it's sad that this section suggests that women cannot say no to sex. They give into it and then feel bad about it later. In my opinion if a women isn't capable of saying no, she shouldn't put herself in that position with a guy. I realize us guys are charming and crafty but if you don't want to have sex then how can you be talked into it? Seems that maybe some women DO want to have sex then just regret it later.

-John Johnson

Second Chapter - Postmodern Sexual Etiquette

I think that Shalit in chapter 2 addressed an interesting reflection about the question: What is the meaning of being a woman? She tried to find an explanation about the relationship between man and woman, and ask us: Why are the men too superficial in their relationships? In my opinion there is no simple answer to this kind of question. There are a lot of issues surrounding a relationship between man and woman. For example, cultural values in the society in which they belong to, family values, sexual orientation, changing values in the society, man’s maturity, woman’s maturity, man and woman’s life goals, and religion. So, as we can see it is not a simple analysis about the reasons why men are so cruel to hook up a girl and then dump her.
I think that sex is a serious decision in men and women’s lives. When one decides to have sex with someone he or she should know who his or her partner is. The first question that should be answered is: what do you expect from the relationship? If one wants just to have fun, then he or she should not be disappointed if he or she dumps you. However, if you are looking for a serious relationship, here are some ideas on how to minimize errors when choosing a partner. Try to find out more about your partner, his or her values, where he or she comes from, who his or her family is, what his or her life’s plans are. In other words, try to find out if you have something in common with him or her. When we are young we look for new experiences, curiosity, discovering new things and our sexual hormones levels are high. Consequently, we kind of take risks without thinking about what the consequences are going to be. We must acknowledge that the challenges that women face in life are more complicated than those that men do. A woman is more vulnerable because she can get pregnant, and if that happens and the man does not support her, she will have to raise a child on her own. But, I think that it is beautiful to be a woman, because they have the power of seduction, and to me it is good! A man without a woman is an incomplete person. I am not the kind of person who is afraid of having a daughter. By the way, I have a pretty and intelligent five-year old daughter. I disagree with Anne Roiphe when she says that when she saw that her child was a girl she said; “…have to tell her ah, what a terrible and painful process it is to be a woman…”. To be a woman is indeed a challenge, but as parents we must open a channel of communication with our child, and tell her about good and bad choices in life. Then if we understand what is happening in her moment of life we can give her guidance on how to choose the best path.
Jose Luis Iglesias

A Return To Modesty Chapter 1

The first chapter of Wendy Shalit's A Return to Modesty was very interesting. Entitled 'The War on Embarrassment', the first chapter includes some of Shalit's personal experiences as a child dealing with "embarrassing" subject matters such as the introduction to sex education as a fourth grader and how she dealt with the issue. She recalls not being a part of the discussion and learning about the material, as her mother did not see it appropriate for her daughter to be learning about such topics. Shalit goes on to discuss the difference between sex education many years ago to the sex education recently instilled by many states. Shalit says the following of embarrassment: "embarrassment is acutually a wonderful thing, signaling that something very strange or every sifnificant is going on, that some boundary is being threatened- either by you or by others. Without embarrassment kids are weaker." My personal opinion on the first chapter of the book is that embarrassment and gratification usually go hand-in-hand. When I'm embarrassed it's usually because I've been put in my place or set straight. The chapter mainly focuses on sex education in the United States. I don't have a problem with children learning about sex education at an earlier age because I think they should be exposed to some of the facts. When it comes to figuring out what is ethically or morally correct, I think a lot of that comes from the households and environment in which the child is raised. The sex education teachers don't give the kids all the information they can possibly learn about the subject and some is left to the parents to explain. I feel like that is a duty and responsibility of a parent to talk to their kids about what choices are right and wrong when it comes to sex. Girls being "bullied" at school or "sexually harassed" about not knowing about sex is ridiculous to me. In fourth grade I couldnt spell harrassment. I don't think boys are specifically trying to harm girls by saying things like that, I think they just don't know that its inappropriate. Maybe, instead of just complaining about 9-old-boys harrassing girls after sex education class, the states should start to instill classes about harrassment?Just a thought.

-Brandon Kinlein